What startups can learn from enterprise corporate messaging — Sara Varni’s lessons from Salesforce & Twilio

[00:00:00] Brett Berson: I thought one interesting place to start before we dive into things like, uh, messaging might be just to talk a little bit about what you think great marketing looks like in the context of an enterprise software business.

[00:00:16] Sarah Varni: for me, I would say that great enterprise marketing doesn't look like what you think enterprise marketing should be. And I think that some of the best enterprise marketing you see on the market actually looks a lot more like consumer. Uh, and you know, the reason I think that that marketing stands out is.

[00:00:35]  there's a heavy focus on how you make someone feel. Uh, and you know how you get to the crux of your message as quickly as possible. Uh, and so that's often I will find myself not going to, my competitor's websites are going to a company that's much larger than mine to see what they're doing. Um, I'm going to consumer companies and thinking, what was it that made me click on that [00:01:00] ad?

[00:01:00] What was it that made me open that email?  or what is it that makes me a, a super fan of that brand? And what are the, the little things they do day to day  that ad app to make me, you know, a fan for life?

[00:01:11] Brett Berson: Is there example that comes to mind that kind of brings this to life? Maybe where you found inspiration in another company and how you translated it to one of the businesses that you were working on? Or maybe  there's work that you did at a given company  that makes it a bit more tangible.

[00:01:29] Sarah Varni: Yeah, I think a recent example from, I mean, there's many,  if I sat and thought about it for a while, I could probably give you 10 examples, but one that's recent that comes to mind, you know, Glossier was in the news a lot lately because of all of the kind of, uh, girl boss press  and whatever.

[00:01:44] And, and that might have been kinda my first entry point into the brand, but, uh, I started, you know, going to their website, looking at products. I really like their products. They have these kind of, uh, natural looking cosmetics that, um, you know, I think are, it's like wearing makeup, [00:02:00] but not wearing makeup.

[00:02:02] Um, which was up my alley. And, you know, they really, um, brought me in. They have a really nice aesthetic that's clean. It's easy to kind of get to what you want. They do a good job of kind of packaging up things in ways that, uh, I think are interesting and probably compel me to buy more. And then their communications is top notch.

[00:02:19]  they actually, and I have to, um, get an SMS plugin here, given that I'm focusing on sms, you know, marketing software now. But,  they engage you via SMS and they encourage you to save them as a contact. And so, you know, they're right there. That brand goes from being. A brand to like a contact in your phone that you're building more of a direct relationship with.

[00:02:40] And, and they're smart. They send me, uh, updates. I don't know the exact cadence, but they're, they're not spamming me every day. And, um, and just talking product, they're really trying to map what I've looked at on the site and then serving up interesting tips or, you know, interesting product that they know is gonna be in line with, with generally  the types of things  I've been [00:03:00] looking for.

[00:03:00] So I think that they're a brand that's, that's getting it right right now. And, um, you know, I think there's a lot that you could think about from a enterprise context, even though I'm talking about a D to C makeup, I guess they're getting more into stores now, but traditionally d toc, makeup brand, um, you might say, what, well, what does that have to do with enterprise software?

[00:03:18] But I, I think there's a ton to be learned from that in terms of, um, really catering a message to your market and, uh, engaging them in a compelling way that gives value back to that, that customer.

[00:03:31] Brett Berson: is there an example from maybe your last longer stinted, Twilio that kind of translates that consumer idea and brings into life in an enterprise context?

[00:03:40] Sarah Varni: I think that there are examples where we wanted to, uh, it's gonna feel more, these examples are probably more enterprisey, but I think the, like bones of that are similar to consumer in that we had a lot of developers come to our site and, you know, they [00:04:00] were interested in Toyo. They had heard about the brand, but they didn't really know how to get started.

[00:04:04] And so we worked really hard to think about how can we look at what we think they are doing and surface up really relevant. Uh, quick start content and quick start guides that aren't super prescriptive. Cuz developers don't wanna be told what to do. They're creators. They want to really, um, be able to, to kind of own their destiny, but, you know, still give 'em kind of the building blocks and starting point to.

[00:04:25]  get a taste of Twilio, to see the magic of Twilio, um, and then, you know, be off into the races. So, you know, that's just one, um, thing. We spent a lot of time, uh, within the kind of early parts of the customer journey and customer life cycle, fine tuning, um, because we knew if we could get them to, uh, write that, that kind of minimum amount of code to, to see how Twilio could work in action, we would have, uh, developers that were really connected with us for a longer period of time.

[00:04:57] Brett Berson: so maybe we could talk a little bit,  cuz you're hitting on this [00:05:00] kind of, how you approach messaging. Um, and maybe you could take us through an example or maybe because  you've had two really long stints, one at Salesforce, one at Twilio, and now you're, you're sort of ramping up at Attentive and maybe in a context of what you're doing at Attentive, kind of what that process looks like for you.

[00:05:20] Sarah Varni: Sure. I, yeah, I was, you know, really lucky to work at Salesforce and Twilio both at really interesting points of their growth. I joined both of those companies when they were about, um, right over a thousand employees and, you know, less than 500 million in revenue. Uh, and you know, I think it was really interesting to see the corporate message evolve and change over the years and to, to see what it is today too.

[00:05:44] And, you know, if you think about a company like Salesforce, obviously Mark is an incredible spokesperson for the company. He's a founder. The found, well, you know, one of four founders of the company, but you know, the person that is, you know, super evangelical still to this day on [00:06:00] stage and is just, you know, one of.

[00:06:02] Probably best presenters in Silicon Valley. Uh, and, but even so, you know, that message has definitely evolved over the years. When we started at Salesforce, we, it was, um, the message was very, um, centered around that, you know, no software. Um, we used to call it the no software bug, but you know, basically the, the sign that said software were the big, you know, red line through it, kind of traditional eighties marketing.

[00:06:25] Uh, and that worked at the time cuz that was really, uh, what we were focused on most. How could we unseat the kind of  the legacy software companies like Oracle and SAP at the time. Um, but over, as the company evolved and we moved from, from just selling Salesforce automation to, you know,  service desk software, as well as marketing software as well as analytics.

[00:06:46] I mean, Salesforce probably has 20 core products today. Uh, and you know, the way that they were. Uh, helping clients expanded dramatically from just helping sales teams and sales operations teams to really helping full companies [00:07:00] transform their business. And, and so the corporate message had to evolve with that.

[00:07:02] And now, you know, you e mark, um, you know, talking about how business is the biggest platform for change and talking about how Salesforce enables you to connect your customers, uh, in new ways. And that was not a message that would've been as practical when they were just selling Salesforce automation software.

[00:07:19] And so I think that it's just a natural kind of evolution  uh, as, as the platform evolved that their, their message had to evolve with it. . And, you know, I think I'm going through a similar exercise here at Attentive. We primarily sell, uh, SMS marketing, uh, software to eTail and  e-commerce brands.

[00:07:37] And, you know, over time I know that our, our product line, our platform will evolve to, you know, cater to more and more industries to cater to more and more use cases. Uh, but I think you have to pick, you have to, you have to identify where are you in terms of product maturity, platform maturity, And to the extent that you can predict, um, you need to kind of think about where you're gonna go, um, because you, you don't wanna [00:08:00] get over your skis and over promise with what you're gonna do, but you also don't wanna box yourself in and just be like, you know, we're, I know for a fact attentive is not just gonna do SMS marketing forever and ever.

[00:08:10] We are definitely, um, in the process of expanding to more and more channels. And so I would be,  significantly boxing, attentive in. If I were just focused on. SMS marketing in terms of our, our corporate message. So I think  you have to skate  to where the puck is going in these scenarios and, you know, build a message that you think can last for the next three to five years, but, you know, not be so, uh, in the clouds.

[00:08:35] And so,  visionary that people don't understand the core, your business. And so that's what the balance is that we've been trying to strike this year with attentive. So we just, you know, did an advertising campaign this year, starting in, uh, in the March timeframe. And we just really wanted to position the category and to, uh, remind people of why text is such a powerful channel for marketers.

[00:08:57] And so we put, um, we did a [00:09:00] big out of home campaign and, and, uh, did some radio ads and, um, you know, used a couple different mediums to get the message across. But the, the, the crux of it said, you know, we had these billboards that said, you know, you can't reply to a billboard. And the tagline was really simple.

[00:09:15] It just said drive sales with text marketing. Uh, because at this phase, for me, success is if someone's driving down the 1 0 1, you know, going 70 miles an hour, do they at least remember what we do? And, you know, over time we can evolve to, tell the, the greater story of,  the full platform and what attentive does.

[00:09:32] But at this point in time, it's just about general education for the market and reminding people why this new channel is something that everyone should pay attention to.

[00:09:41] Brett Berson: Can you talk about what your process looks like?  if that's sort of the, the outcome is  that piece of messaging, how do you get there?

[00:09:52] Sarah Varni: Yeah, I mean, I think there's, um, a couple different,  things you need to. Go through to ultimately get to a message that you see in [00:10:00] market? Uh, I think first off, you need to get buy in from either the founding team or the ceo. Uh, and, you know, not every ceo, I think a lot of them would say, everyone thinks that they're a marketer, but I think, you know, a lot of CEOs would admit like, Hey, look, marketing's not my core discipline.

[00:10:15] Uh, and so I, but I think you, you definitely need to get them on board generally with what you're doing because they are, uh, likely to be one of your biggest spokespeople and you need to think of a message that they can authentically deliver on a stage or, you know, press release or in front of a reporter or whatever it is.

[00:10:33] Um, so I think it's really critical to kind of get their buy in as early as you can. And, you know, look, I'm talking about a billboard, but you know, a corporate message is, um, I'd say when you're like deciding on a corporate message, I think a lot of it surround. That mission statement and the, the ad that I was just discussing is more of a, of a byproduct of that than the, like, heart of of corporate messaging.

[00:10:56] I think a lot of it starts with that like simple mission statement, who you are, [00:11:00] um, what you would say in front of an all hands to describe what the company does, you know, what you would say, uh, at an industry event. I think that that normally is the best place to kind of start and make sure everyone's, you know, grounded in the same language.

[00:11:13] Um, and so, you know, I think you've gotta get the CEO buy-in from early on. I think you also wanna get buy-in from the field and,  I think that,  a salesperson is going to more likely gravitate towards messaging that's like realistic. That's something that they can, that's on the truck right now that they can sell.

[00:11:28] But, and, and so you, you, but you still want their input. Um, you know, your, your mission statement's li likely to be a little bit more lofty, but you wanna make sure that it's not completely divorced. Reality. And you know what they, a a sales person is not gonna, you know, use a mission statement in a face-to-face customer meeting, but you also need to make sure that it's not so out there and built in an ivory tower, that it's completely divorced from how your, um, sales team is really talking about what you do as a company.

[00:11:55] Um, and then I just, you know, I think the problem that you run into, you [00:12:00] can go on and on forever and debate mission statements and, and corporate message. And I think it's really important to try and have some sort of forcing function. And it could be, uh, inter, you know, an internal milestone. Maybe it's your sales kickoff.

[00:12:13] It could be, uh, you know, an external milestone like, uh, uh, you know, a third party event. It could be a, a product launch where you need to update the boiler plate of your press release, like very, um, tactically, But, you know, just create some sort of forcing function so that you've got to decide on, you know, some message, uh, in a certain point in time.

[00:12:35] Otherwise, I think, you know, you can just swirl on this forever and, and never really make progress.

[00:12:41] Brett Berson: And once you sort of set the deadline, wh what do you actually do?  I guess I'm also curious when you talk about. Engaging the sales team or the go to market function as you're doing this, what, what are you actually doing? What are the conversations you're having?

[00:12:56] And then how does that ladder into who's [00:13:00] actually working on the messaging and the iterative process to, to land on something that you can ship at a user conference or maybe a big press moment or what have you.

[00:13:10] Sarah Varni: Yeah. So I mean, I think it, it, it takes a, you know, corporate message takes forum in a number of different assets and vehicles. So I think once you generally decide on your corporate message, and so let's say that that's like mission statement, and then let's say it's like, uh, at Salesforce we used to call this your money slide.

[00:13:30] So it'd be. This is what, uh, our platform does, and here are the four different components of the, the value prop. Um, and you can see that take shape in the way your homepage is structured. So, you know, big message on the top and you know, your page, the, the, the four kind of sections underneath it might like map exactly to that value proposition.

[00:13:53] It's probably gonna take shape in your sales deck, in your first call deck so that you know, there's alignment there and, and your reps are kind of saying [00:14:00] the same thing every day. Um, it can take shape in ads. So, you know, if you are running a, you know, display ad campaign or a, a campaign on social,  can you see that message in, in that set of ads?

[00:14:14] Uh, it could be in your, uh, your press releases.  it could be in the opening paragraph. Um, you know, attentive the conversational commerce platform, uh, today announces, you know, getting that kind of language, um, front and center in, um, your kind of outbound, uh, press work.

[00:14:33] Uh, you know, so as you can see, like across the whole marketing mix, there's a number of different places where, um, your corporate message will show up. And I think you have to decide like what's the right altitude, Uh, you know, on your website, especially if you're selling to lower segments, it's gonna be more in plain English.

[00:14:49] If you are giving a visionary keynote, uh, you know, it's gonna be more lofty and more, you know, uh, forward looking. And so I think that that's where, [00:15:00] um, you know, there's,  magic and art to it. You've gotta figure out who's the audience. , you know, what do they, what do they need from this message right now?

[00:15:08] And how do I fine tune it so that it all kind of works together, but it, it's gonna help drive whatever action I want. If it's getting investors and analysts excited at, uh, more visionary keynote about the future of the company, you know, that's a win. If it's, uh, on your website and you're just trying to get someone to click on the, you know, request a demo or talk to a salesperson, um, button, you know, that's a win too, and takes a slightly different message.

[00:15:36] Brett Berson: And so do you just sort of start workshopping these components in a Google Doc and kind of go back and forth with a small group of people, or what does it actually look like when you try to pull in sort of these disparate ideas and land on actual language that achieves the the goals?

[00:15:55] Sarah Varni: Yeah, like if you have a definite moment in time where everything has to look exactly the same [00:16:00] at  one particular moment, I think like a big, uh, cross-functional team where every, uh, where someone from every, uh, department of the marketing team is, is in the same room, um, as well as whoever the, the right external, uh, stakeholders are external Tim marketing within your company, if that's sales enablement, um, if that's, you know, sales, leadership, uh, making sure that, you know, everyone's, uh, all kind of marching to the same drum.

[00:16:29] Uh, and you know, I think that that's a key part of, of getting everyone. Uh, on the same page, but I think on an ongoing basis too, it's good to have artifacts of what your corporate message is. Uh, you know, some people use messaging frameworks or messaging houses where, you know, you have your kind of top level message and then it, it'll break out into different sub-functions if it's, um, you know, based on, on how your platform shakes out.

[00:16:53] And there might be proof points underneath that and customer stories that feed  like each kind of column within the, the [00:17:00] messaging house. Um, so I've seen a lot of, at Salesforce and Twilio, that was not common practice as much. I definitely have seen people that I've recruited, uh, from other companies bring that in, uh, at Salesforce and to a certain extent Twilio.

[00:17:14] Cause we had a lot of marketing DNA at Twilio from Salesforce. Uh, we kind of lived and died by that first call deck.  it essentially operates as a messaging house, but it's,  it's much easier to go and use that deck at a user conference and get real time feedback as to like, do you see a lot of nodding heads or people agreed with what you're saying, or you do, you have a lot of people  on their phone and, and, and not, um, you know, paying attention.

[00:17:38] And so, uh, that kind of became our proxy for and our artifact to say, Hey, if you have a question about how you should structure webpage, or, you know, what the kind of starter slide should be for any presentation, this is what you should refer back to. And this is something that we'll, we'll constantly, you know, refine and fine tune so that everyone's up to speed on the latest and greatest.[00:18:00] 

[00:18:00] Brett Berson: And a first call deck is sort of what a frontline sales rep would use when they're first engaging with a potential customer.

[00:18:07] Sarah Varni: that's right. It's, it's basically, you know, I've seen first call decks that are, uh, uh, a hundred slides long. But I think ideally, you know, you wanna a, a short deck that, um, in like 15 to 20 slides, talks about, uh, you know, what your company does, what's the pain they're solving, why they're especially good at it, and what, you know, customers are, are seeing success with, with your products.

[00:18:32] Brett Berson: So you mentioned this a second ago as it relates to how do you know if that material's resonating, but if you zoom out even a little bit more and you're, you're trying to understand if your corporate messaging is achieving, your goals are working, how do you sort of diagnose that or figure that out? Or, and maybe you could sort of talk about, you know, you came into Attentive, which is a, a company that, that has been scaling for a while, so they had a corporate message.

[00:18:58] And so how [00:19:00] are you coming in and deciding whether it's effective or not?

[00:19:05] Sarah Varni: Yeah, I mean, I think, um, I think there's a couple different ways. Some are like, um, way more tangible and some are a little bit more by feeling or, um, more I would say anecdotal. Uh, I think, uh, you know, if I actually think back to my Twilio days, I have some examples like, um, that are, that are really top of mind.

[00:19:26] You know, at Twilio  we were kind of put in this,  communications platform as a service category, which, uh, served us well in some ways, but didn't really tell the full story of what we did. And we were, we definitely had ambitions to move more up the stack and to build more software on top of our core APIs.

[00:19:42] And so we, uh, probably my first year at Twilio decided to try and create this new category around customer engagement platforms because we felt like  that naming and that kind of messaging served really what we did better. And so, um, we [00:20:00] started out on this journey. We started to deliver that message at our roadshow events.

[00:20:03] We did about 20 roadshow events a year, and we started to do it at our user conference. We use it with press and analysts. And, you know, at first it's just kind of like, all right, we're kind of, um, out to see with, you know, no, uh, it's just hard to know like how that's gonna ultimately land. But over time we started to.

[00:20:21] Other companies picked that up and we started to see that message show up on, on people's homepages, and we started to see press actually talk about that. Um, and so slowly but surely we started to see that that message, it wasn't just us, it felt like this category was missing. There were, you know, other people in our kind of surrounding spaces that felt that that was a better depiction of, of what we were doing, kind of in this middle layer of, of infrastructure.

[00:20:44] Um, so that's more the, you know, anecdotal kind of, you know, by feeling you're not, it's, it's, it's hard to kind of go run a, you know, a, a report in GA and get that data. Um, but then I think like very tactically you can see just looking at what salespeople are [00:21:00] using. And, uh, you know, I, I go into a high spot and I, if I have a deck that I've spent hours on and it only has three downloads, like that's a sign.

[00:21:11] It's not working for people. What happens generally is a salesperson finds a piece of content they use and then they tell their buddies, or they're a, you know, leader of a team. They say, Hey, this text's great, you should use it. And if that's not, um, taking off, you know, that's a sign that something's wrong.

[00:21:24] And so, you know, I think you have to do your own kind of internal push around it. I wouldn't just expect a, a salesperson to just kind of stumble upon stuff themselves, but, you know, there's, there are, I have plenty of examples of places where we did a full training and enablement and still saw kind of lackluster uptake for some content that we built.

[00:21:42] So if I do see things that aren't performing, I, I really try to, um, not just kind of sit with the data, but actually get in front of sales and say, Hey, what's working about this? What's not? I don't wanna build content that is not useful, um, to you because it's not a great use of our team's time is [00:22:00] not a great use of your time and.

[00:22:02] I think in kind of just getting on the phone and, and walking through something with them and also trying to, I think sometimes marketers build stuff and they never pitch it themselves. And I think once you're actually in front of a customer and start to like, go through a deck you've built, you learn a lot.

[00:22:17] You just, like, you learn like, Oh, this is kind of clunky, or, Oh, like, again, like reading the room and seeing like how people are reacting. You learn a ton from that process. And I always try to encourage my marketers to not just kind of build stuff at, you know, behind the screen and, you know, without like really going out and testing it.

[00:22:35] Um, and I, I really, uh, encourage, especially my product marketing team to, to get out, uh, at events, either, you know, first party or third party to, to get that kind of experience under their belt and really see how their messages are landing.

[00:22:51] Brett Berson: One of the things that you, you mentioned as it relates to messaging is this, this kind of idea that [00:23:00] at certain parts of the company's journey, you should probably be more literal or specific about what the product does or how it might help a customer. And then as the company matures, you tend to have the opportunity to, to maybe do something that's a little bit more inspirational.

[00:23:18] And I'm curious how you like, think about that or figure out when is the right time to kind of elevate, you know, a, a a, a given message. You know, an example might be, Peloton probably started with something like, you know, a fitness class in your house or something. And now it's probably something like, we go farther together or whatever is the main thing that they're constantly talking about.

[00:23:44] Um, and that's obviously the arc of the, that that fits into the arc of the company. So, so I was interested, is there any other things you can share about that, sort of what that looks like done well and what maybe it doesn't look like and maybe what it looks like not done well, cuz we've all gone to a webpage  [00:24:00] or seen someone present and you literally don't know what the product does.

[00:24:04] Sarah Varni:  I just wanna preface my answer on this question with, I, I worked both at Salesforce and Twilio who were, who generally started in the s and b and mid-market space and evolved to, to sell more to enterprise.

[00:24:15] And so I don't know if my advice on how your message should evolve is, is more, uh, pointed towards moving from asking me to enterprise or is just generally as your company, uh, becomes more and more mature, you move from being, and you're, you know, you move on from, from seeing the market with whatever you do, uh, you know, to, to being more aspirational and lofty.

[00:24:41] But, um, I, I'll say that, you know, when you think about how most enterprise software companies start, they start in the low end of the market. And, um, when you're selling to SMBs, they have limited time, they have limited resources, and, uh, you just want to, in plain English, Tell the customer what you [00:25:00] do, tell them why it'll drive, uh, uh, value for their business and give them access as quickly as possible to try your product or buy it.

[00:25:09] Uh, and so that makes for, uh, you know, I think in, in, in that world, the name of the game is all about simplicity and being super clear. But as you evolve over time and you sell to larger and larger customers, you have stakeholders who are motivated by different things. They are largely, they are tasked more often with broader company-wide projects.

[00:25:31] They're asked to look to technology to help transform a company and to bring it to its next chapter of growth. And in that, and they also are working on projects that aren't. A month long, or, you know, 90 days long, they could be multi-year projects. And so in that sense, you need to, uh, be communicating in a way that gives that buyer confidence that not only do you have a great product today, but you're also going to be a partner that [00:26:00] they can rely on, that your technology's gonna be future futureproof.

[00:26:02] So three years from now when whatever pops up, if it's, you know, machine learning, or if it's iot, or if it's, uh, you know, web three, uh, that you're gonna be, uh, thinking about all these different dimensions that that might come their way. And so, you know, as you, as you evolve and, and think about selling to, uh, a more, uh, sophisticated customer, you know, your message has to evolve with that transition.

[00:26:30] Brett Berson: Can you maybe explain a little bit more about what you think are the differences between marketing to an SMB audience and marketing to an enterprise audience?

[00:26:39] Sarah Varni: Yeah, I think that, uh, when you're marketing to an s and b audience, they are more in the weeds and the, the, you know, speeds and feeds, as we sometimes say of what a product does. They just wanna make sure that, uh, if, if they're going to your product and it's, let's say cheaper than the competition, that they're not gonna lose any [00:27:00] functionality in that transition.

[00:27:01] They're, they're definitely, um, you know, going through kind of the  Checkbox exercises,  to make sure that their product, your product is just gonna work for them. . I think when you move to the enterprise, obviously, uh, you know, enterprise customers wanna make sure your product works too.

[00:27:13] Uh, but they are, um, thinking more from, uh, a solution mindset. They might have to bring multiple departments together to use your solution. They might have, uh, different hierarchies of people within their company that they need to, to use your solution for with, you know, managers and ics and roles and, um, permissions and hierarchies and in all the things that come as, you know, with a, a company that, um, is, is larger and larger and so they're gonna, uh, be more focused.

[00:27:47] How all these things work together. And then, you know, they also wanna know that your technology's gonna be able to grow with their needs. Uh, you know, it can be a big deal to bring a new um, product, a new software product to a [00:28:00] company. Um, it can be a big bet for someone's career. And they wanna make sure that if they're taking their company down that path, that if they get, you know, 18 months into a project and something new comes their way, your technology's gonna be able to handle that request.

[00:28:13] And so, um, that's why having a more visionary message, having a more long term view into your roadmap is really important, uh, when you go and sell to enterprise customers because, they can't just look at what exists today and take that as gospel.

[00:28:30] They've gotta be thinking much further ahead. 

[00:28:33] Brett Berson: How did these ideas map, if at all, into sort of category modification or category creation?

[00:28:41] Sarah Varni: Yeah, I mean, I think Twilio's a great example of this. We, um, traditionally had sold communications APIs, uh, to developers. And, uh, you know, I think that, uh, Twilio's kind of core use cases in the beginning were alerts and notifications for, you know, very [00:29:00] simple. I wouldn't say very simple, but, you know, general tasks that you do day in and day out.

[00:29:04] So, hey,  you are. Trying to,  transfer money for Bank of America. Bank of America will send you, uh, you know, two FA code so that you can verify your account and, you know, be off into the races. Um, but over time we started to see our customers use, uh, Twilio in all different parts of their company. And when it came to things like customer service, it was important that all those APIs were connected to each other so that people could understand what was happening in all different parts of the, the customer journey.

[00:29:36] And so at that point in time for Twilio, we really evolved from just a communications API message to more of a full platform for customer engagement. So that at any point in a customer's life cycle, you could understand, all right,  we sent them this, uh, two a notice, uh, today for, you know, transferring funds.

[00:29:56] We also sent them an invite for a webinar via [00:30:00] email. We sent them, uh, a notification that. Uh, for upsell for, uh, you know, a savings account. And now they could see that all in one, um, central platform and be able to get a full view of their customer. And so as we move to provide more of that functionality for our customers, our message had to evolve with it because just talking about individual developer APIs wasn't as relevant to the types of customers that we were we were talking to that were further up market.

[00:30:28] Brett Berson: And you touched on this a little bit, but as a marketer, h how do you, what are the indications or what are you looking for that it's time to make that transition?

[00:30:40] Sarah Varni: I think that, um, you know, as you are, As your software becomes more and more pervasive at an organization  and just, you know, very practically that the amount of money that any company is spending with you, uh, increases, that is going to draw more attention from people higher up the chain at these [00:31:00] organizations.

[00:31:00] And those people are motivated by different things. The CFO's gonna be motivated by making sure that they're getting the best price acro if they're using the software all over the, the company, you know, the CIO's gonna wanna make sure that it's efficient in terms of, uh, how it works with all of their other systems and doesn't, you know, create more overhead.

[00:31:19] And so, uh, I think it's just important to be really mindful of that as you're, as you're evolving into a more enterprise company. Enterprise, you know, great company and how you're arming your original stakeholders too, I think is super important. The people that were like, uh, the kind of original fan, uh, boys or girls for your.

[00:31:39] Company equipping them with the right justification for why the, why the higher up should sign off on the budget or, uh, the ongoing, you know, expense of the software is, is super important in, in, you know, making sure that you continue to grow relationships. Uh, you know, uh, more and more up market[00:32:00] 

[00:32:00] Brett Berson: Was, was customer engagement a category that already existed that Twilio, uh, grabbed a hold of? Or did you create the category in some way?

[00:32:12] Sarah Varni: people were, I mean, customer engagement's not like that, um, exotic of a word, like people were using it here and there, but it wasn't used, um, attached to a platform name. So, uh, you, you would see customer relationship management platforms, But customer engagement platforms was a new, uh, new category that, uh, we started to seed and started to see other, um, players in the communication space that operated.

[00:32:38] Uh, more up the stack, even like a Zoom, I think, uh, is, is using that messaging today, um, you know, start to adopt over time.

[00:32:47] Brett Berson: What was the process to land on wanting to push really hard on customer engagement? Was it like immediately obvious or was there a range of directions you were thinking about going?

[00:32:57] Sarah Varni: I think going back to kind of [00:33:00] where we started this conversation, I think we wanted to find a, uh, we wanted to define ourselves within a category that showed where we were going and where our roadmap was pointed, uh, without being too far afield from what we actually do. And a big factor in this too is developers are very cynical to any corporate speak or messaging.

[00:33:24] And we did a lot of testing with, uh, through our developer evangelists and with our developer community directly to say like, Are these words that are like nails on a chalkboard for you. And so, you know, we threw out a couple different, um, uh, iterations and configurations of things in this vein, um, to really kind of nail what we ended up with.

[00:33:46] And also I think the, the analyst community and software is a big contributor to, to some of these discussions too. And, you know, I think that they provided, they were a good sounding board for us too, as we, we thought about what we wanted to do and, and how we wanted to evolve.[00:34:00] 

[00:34:01] Brett Berson: How do you think about competition or marketing and messaging in competitive categories maybe versus less competitive categories?

[00:34:12] Sarah Varni: Uh, I mean, I think it makes you work harder and really think about your differentiation. I think that, uh, if you are, uh, you are a category of one, I mean, I think there's a few questions. First off,  You can be a little bit of a lazier marketer, but you also might wanna ask if you're a category one.

[00:34:28] Why is that? Like, are people not gluing on to the, the category you've chosen in the first place? Um, I just, uh, I think sometimes having a competitor is the best fuel, not just for marketing perspective, but for a company. And I think you gotta make sure you're not just chasing your competitor everywhere they go, but I think it makes everyone much more crisp on what your true differentiation is and when it, and that takes shape in messaging and how you talk about things on your website, how you equip your sales team with the right angles to, to really [00:35:00] win.

[00:35:00] Uh, but it also helps shape your roadmap too. Like, all right, are we just building everything that the competition has or do we really have a good percentage of a roadmap, uh, uh, dedicated to things that are gonna help us pull away from the pack? So, uh, I think sometimes people are like, Oh man, I'm in this competitive category, this terrible, There's people coming from all sides.

[00:35:21] I actually, as a market, Uh, love having, uh, clear competition. Cause I think it really forces clarity and it pushes, uh, the team to really think outside of the box of how you can stand out.

[00:35:35] Brett Berson: On the sort of articulating points of differentiation, do you think that's easy and intuitive when you're at a given company, everyone knows it and it's obvious and then you're just trying to find the right language for it? Or do you have to be a detective as a marketer to try to figure out Maybe there are things that a sales leader, a product leader, doesn't think are meaningful points of differentiation, but [00:36:00] actually can be or can be packaged in a certain way.

[00:36:03] Sarah Varni: I, I think it can completely vary company to company and category to category. Uh, I think that, uh, it also can change over time. So you might have a clear set of differentiators and then six months down the road you wake up and realize that the competition has caught up. Certain fronts. And then you've gotta think about, all right, well what, you know, what do we have that's new?

[00:36:28] Or, you know, how do we, uh, tweak things in a different way to, to really still stand out? Because there's a lot of, you know, there are, even though I say like having a competitor makes you less lazy as a marketer, there are some marketing groups that just copy whatever the competition is doing. Uh, and so, you know, you've gotta kind of continue to figure out ways that if they're, first off, if they're not being truthful about, you know, what they're doing.

[00:36:57] Uh, and there's a lot of gray area here. I'm not saying even [00:37:00] people are doing anything legal, but maybe they're overstating or being hyperbolic with, with, with how they're positioning things. I think you have to, wherever you can prove your differentiation with metrics or stats or customer testimonials that, um, just make it unquestionable that you are the leader in your space or you're the leader for.

[00:37:19] A, B and C reasons. Um, and I think that there's um, no better way to kind of, um, solidify your position than by backing it up with real, true customer feedback and making sure you've got even like, pictures of people and their titles and, you know, all of that just makes it more and more real for the audience and makes it, you know, undeniable.

[00:37:40] Brett Berson: So, switching gears just a little bit, what have you learned about having the most productive relationship with your sales counterpart? And maybe what does it look like when it's high functioning, and what are sort of the traps or issues or friction points that tend to emerge [00:38:00] between a sales function and a marketing?

[00:38:03] Sarah Varni: I, uh, I think the first thing I always try to do with my sales counterpart is to level set on how we think about driving pipeline and leads for the business. And I think sometimes people get too wrapped up in, all right, it's inbound versus outbound and that's all we're gonna look at. You know, that's the only way we're gonna look at the world.

[00:38:24] And so if the inbound number's not where it's at, marketing, you know, marketing's all idiots if the outbound number is not where it is, the sales people are being lazy or whatever it is. And I just think, like, I think you have to come at it as a, this is a team effort and if we're not hitting our number, the combined number overall, um, we've both failed.

[00:38:45] And so that's like kind of mindset I like to, to start with. Cuz I, I just think unless you're like a 99%. Self-service business, which there are some out there. Like I just, it's generally a, a, a team sport in enterprise software. [00:39:00] Um, so, you know, I just kind of try to love sun numbers cause I do see in the past I, where I have seen people go sideways is where, um, you know, there's the, you know, debate about, oh, marketing produces leads, but they're not high quality.

[00:39:13] And then marketing gets mad cuz sales doesn't follow up on leads. And so I just, I hate getting into those kind of conversations. They just, I don't feel like they, I think they're distracting and you at the end of the day don't make a ton of progress. Um, I also just think, you know, every sales leader is a little bit different.

[00:39:29] Like, and I think you have to, this is advice I give on almost working with any type of exec or employee. It's like what motivates this person at the end of the day? Are they, uh, like, are they, uh, look at the dashboard every couple hours type of sales leader? Are they more of a. Uh, larger enterprise deal kind of person that likes to like, figure out all the relationships, uh, you know, are they, you know, transactional.

[00:39:55] I think figuring out those types of, um, of [00:40:00] personality traits early on is important too, because then you can think about programs that are gonna, cuz you can't be a successful marketer as a lone wolf, you absolutely need your sales leader to help, um, drive the programs that you're trying to drive. And you can't just expect to like, send an email out to a whole sales team and have them do the, you know, five things that you want them to do.

[00:40:22] Like, it's absolutely gotta be enforced through sales leadership at the, at the very top and, you know, through the organization. Whether that's, you know, RVPs. Or country leads or, or whatever it is. And so I think a key part in getting the sales, your sales counterpart excited is understanding what motivates them and, and you know, how they found success to get to the point where they are.

[00:40:45] Cause those are gonna be the types of programs that are gonna resonate with them and that they're gonna be more likely to ultimately back for you. And so, um, that's just, I've, I've, uh, over time and working with a number of different sales leaders at this point, I've found that that [00:41:00] is the fastest way to success and, and ultimately, you know, to get the, the optimal results at the end of the day.

[00:41:08] Brett Berson: When, when you join a new company or maybe there's a new CRO that joins, do you just sort of go out to lunch and have an open ended sort of conversation or is there some structure or things that you like to, to do to set the relationship on the the best footing?

[00:41:25] Sarah Varni: Yeah, I mean, I think that I, I definitely set up a regular cadence of meetings. I think meeting someone in. It, it's just a, it's a weird time right now where, you know, I work for a new based company and so we, we get together probably quarterly right now as a exec team in person, which is great. Um, but you know, in the absence of being able to do that on a day to day basis, I definitely set up a regular one-on-one, even remotely, um, just to make sure that we're, you know, on the same page.

[00:41:52] And we we're not always in the same meetings, but we'll be in meetings with our, um, with our respective team members sometimes. And so I [00:42:00] use that time to just make sure like we're all on the same page and that we're, um, you know, everyone's kind of hearing the same thing.  but I don't try to over-engineer it.

[00:42:08] Like  it  bums me out to hear  the traditional, like sales and marketing don't get along. Like I come at it from a  of course this thing's gonna work out perspective cuz it's got, or else you're not, you know, you're gonna be not long for the world of whatever company you're at.

[00:42:21] Um, and so I just, um, I try to kind of shelve all the like, preconceived ideas of like how sales and marketing get along or don't get along and just, um, look at the person and say, How can I help this person? What motivates them? What is their team makeup like? And, you know, how can I think about the right set of programs that are, are ultimately gonna line up to that and drive the most success for attentive?

[00:42:49] Brett Berson: Outside of maybe the comment you made about a one-on-one with your, um, revenue counterpart are, are there other rituals or [00:43:00] meetings or things that you do as a CMO that you found have an outsized impact?

[00:43:07] Sarah Varni: Yeah, I'm a big, um, I think sometimes, uh, CMOs get a reputation for, you know, just caring about how things look and, you know, making sure. , they have a great event that people talk about, but they're not as tied to the numbers. And so I really try, uh, early on when I join a company to figure out what's the smallest amount of metrics I can get a handle on that will motivate the biggest part of my team.

[00:43:33] And then how can I bake that into every, uh, team meeting I have. Every, all hands I have. I, um, socialize that with my, uh, sales counterpart so that, you know, they understand how I'm measuring my side of the business and, you know, make sure that's just front and center to everything we do. I, um, I write up a, a virtual QBR doc every quarter that goes through top to bottom of funnel, how our performance was, how are, uh, our [00:44:00] pipeline efficiency is.

[00:44:00] So for every dollar we spend, how much pipe are we getting back? Um, and I really try to be religious about that. And it's, you. Um, part so that I'm inspecting all, um, sides of the business. And it's also obviously a huge byproduct of that is that my team's gotta sweat those numbers on a day to day basis. I don't, I want everyone waking up and thinking about what is their part of the funnel that they're owning and really thinking about driving and, and what is the day to day activity that, uh, they're working on so that when we come around to next quarter, those numbers look better.

[00:44:30] Uh, and so that's just, um, I've always tried to, to really lead with, um, numbers and be a bit of a broken record on, on what we're measuring.

[00:44:40] Brett Berson: On that point about numbers, maybe in the case of attentive, can you talk through, you know, you, you sort of just made the comment, what are the smallest amount or fewest metrics that will motivate the largest part of the team? What, what are the metrics you landed on at Attentive, for example, and, and maybe what's the why behind them?[00:45:00] 

[00:45:00] Sarah Varni: Sure. So I look at, uh, I look at site traffic. Uh, I look at our M qls marketing qualified leads. I look at our sales qualified leads, and then I look at pipeline, like if I had to get it down to like the smallest number, that would be the four that I look at. And, you know, web traffic is obviously a sign of awareness.

[00:45:17] If you, you can get more granular on traffic, I think looking at things. , uh, direct traffic. So people that are just typing in attentive.com, uh, is a good proxy for, for brand awareness. And something that we've, we've looked at a lot this year is we've done more brand work. Um, organic traffic's really important to look at too, as you think about your, your content and how, um, your SEO is working relative to the competition.

[00:45:42] So when I'm double cleaning my content team, I'll go deeper on web traffic, but you know, at all hands, I just look at overall web traffic. And I always like to look at year over years because I think, um, quarter over quarter can be noisy just based on any kind of seasonal trends in your business. So, [00:46:00] uh, that's web traffic, marketing qualified leads.

[00:46:02] That's, uh, anyone who's filling out a, a lead form on your website for let's say a content offer. Um, or, uh, you know, a demo. Then you get into and within marketing qualified leads too, if I'm going deep with my growth team, I will look at not just overall marketing qualified leads, but also what are the people will call this.

[00:46:24] Uh,  I think when I [email protected], one of the founders there called it, you know, what is their golden motion or what is their, like, most high quality lead. And so I won't just look at overall marketing qualified leads, which could be a mix of like eBooks and webinar invites. And, you know, there's a mix of kind of quality within marketing qualified leads.

[00:46:41] Um, I also really try to break out the leads that we know are highest converting. So for us, uh, you know, Requested demo is our, uh, one of our leads that we treat most seriously because it shows a high level of intent. And so I wanna make sure that, that, um, that number in particular is super healthy, uh, as [00:47:00] we, uh, you know, look at things over, over.

[00:47:03] Um, and then sales qualified leads is just, uh, you know, looking at all right of the marketing qualified leads, which, where were their actual, um, where was their actual rent, interest and budget? And is, are these people actually, you know, ready to um, be,  put into more of a, a formal sales cycle?

[00:47:22] And then I look at pipeline, cause you could drive up the lead number, but it might not be for the right s segments that you want. So I think it's also really important to have a pipeline number that you're tracking to, cuz you've got, um, you know, uh, SQLs will be your measure of, of quantity. And then pipeline to a certain extent will be a measure of quality.

[00:47:39] So those are, um, are really the kind of four buckets I look at on a regular basis. And, and I also look at conversion points in each of them just to identify, all right, if we have a bunch of wet traffic, but it's not comparing to M qls, is there something wrong with our offers? Is there, um, you know, something wrong with the way we're capturing leads.

[00:47:57] Um, I'll look at the conversion of [00:48:00] nql to SQLs if there's a drop off there. Sometimes there's an issue with, uh, inside sales productivity, uh, or, uh, you know, that could be an indication of, uh, sometimes you'll see it kind of flux based on the timing of the quarter and what other activities sales is doing.

[00:48:16] Uh, and so I do look at the conversion points between each of those two.

[00:48:22] Brett Berson: And are those metrics that you are sort of quite religious about, would they be the same as the types of things that you worked and watched very closely at Twilio, or are they different in some way?

[00:48:34] Sarah Varni: Uh, they are, um, largely the same. I'd say the, the other factor at Twilio, we had, uh, self-service funnel with, with developer signups that where someone might express interest in Twilio. They might be playing around just kind of learning what it is, but they weren't a true enterprise buyer or didn't have a true project.

[00:48:54] sometimes months, sometimes years down the road. And so we had this other, we had, we would definitely, uh, [00:49:00] monitor developer signups as kind of a separate thread. Um, so that was the, the one addition. And then, you know, we tried to figure out, all right, what are the signals that where we see a developer signup, uh, ultimately turning into more of a marketing qualified lead, and then a sales qualified lead.

[00:49:17] Brett Berson: I was curious, what do you think are, are some of your less consensus opinions about marketing in an enterprise context or, or more controversial beliefs that you figured out? One when we started the conversation was that you tend to be much more gravitated to consumer marketing and think that that, that, that's actually quite similar to great enterprise marketing.

[00:49:43] Are, are there other things that you kind of have developed really strong beliefs around over the course of your career or maybe changed your mind about over the course of your career? Uh,

[00:49:54] Sarah Varni: I, Um, I think there are a few things I think that, um, you know, speaking to the [00:50:00] messaging conversation that we had earlier in this, um, session, I, I think sometimes people think they can only have one message and it's gotta be repeated everywhere no matter what. And I think that that, um, makes it so that you, you solve for the middle and you, you end up with a, like, watered down corporate message.

[00:50:20] And I think it's perfectly okay to say, to have one message that you say at, um, you know, a keynote or, uh, in front of a reporter or in front of an analyst that's more visionary, and then have a, a message that you would say across the table to a customer that's not. Uh, as maybe loftier visionary, but is like, uh, but it, but it's still not divorced from that high level message.

[00:50:44] Like, um, you know what, Salesforce used to have this, uh, messaging around, uh, connecting to your customers in new ways and the customer success platform. And I just, I would go on calls with salespeople and it's just not the exact language they're gonna use [00:51:00] in front of a customer. Cause it's too formal, honestly, for the day to day.

[00:51:03] And the customer just has, you know, real questions about what a CRM platform could do and more plain English. And so I, I think it's, um, I, I I think some people get religious that, oh no, you have to, if you're gonna say customer success platform, it, whatever forum you've gotta, you know, that's gotta be like drilled into your sales team too.

[00:51:23] And I just don't think that, I personally don't think that that's the way the world works and I think people are, are kind of afraid to, to say that. So that's, that's one thing. Um, I think another thing that's just, uh, Evolved over time, but I still think is really important is, is pr. And I think it's, um, it's always, I've seen this at, at every, on every team that I've worked on.

[00:51:45] It's not the easiest thing to measure, but I think it can be super powerful. Um, as you're building a brand. I think it can be super powerful as, um, you're building an employer brand too. Um, and you know, I think the world has moved on [00:52:00] from the standard kind of press release, put it on the wire at 5:00 AM and just expect, you know, articles to bring from the sky.

[00:52:06] I think it's, it's, uh, a much different market these days in terms of thought leadership and content and, and all, and you know, there's more dimensions to it than just kind of the standard, uh, launch and, and repeat. Uh, but I just, uh, I think that that is, um, uh, an area that it's sometimes hard to get.

[00:52:28] executive buy-in for, but I still deep down think it not even deep down, uh, I, I, I believe it's, uh, you know, can be a huge lever as you're, as you're trying to see to market and, and really make a name for yourself.

[00:52:41] Brett Berson: A couple areas I wanted to bounce around to to sort of end our conversation. One is what have you learned about the difference between being, let's say for simplicity's sake, a VP of marketing versus a cmo? And you know what I mean by that is a cmo, being a member of the [00:53:00] executive team versus maybe a VP of marketing who's a senior marketer.

[00:53:06] Sarah Varni: I would say that you can't just stay in your box and be like, I'm only gonna understand the marketing world. I think when you're a CMO and are part of the exec team, you've gotta understand the nuts and bolts of your business. You have to understand how all the components, um, you know, work together. Uh, how the, you know, how certain business lines, uh, have p and Ls attached to them.

[00:53:30] How budgeting works as a, as a company overall, uh, because  it will influence how you think about the way you set up your programs within, uh, the department. I think it's also important when it comes to hard decisions like we're all living in. Markets that are, that are tough right now, they're challenging.

[00:53:52] And I think, you know, you have to think about, all right, well how do I message back to my team, you know, why we're making the decisions we were making as [00:54:00] a company. And, and if you have the broader worldview of, of how all the pieces fit together, you're way better equipped to deliver that message to your team rather than just kind of being focused on your area and being like, Oh, like, you know, why are they hiring sales people and not more marketers?

[00:54:15] You know, like that. It could be easy as a VP of marketing, it's easy to kind of be, woe is me. And I think as a cmo you've gotta be more of a, a corporate team player and be able to communicate that, um, that balance to your team to keep them motivated.

[00:54:31] Brett Berson: How did you sort of figure that out? Or was there a, a, a formative experience that kind of shaped that transition for you?

[00:54:40] Sarah Varni: I, I just think over time there were patterns that I started to see where I think at first you like take things personally and you're like, I don't care if, you know, we at Salesforce for example, there's, they've got a, a very, uh, well established formula about how adding AEs can drive revenue. And so at first, yeah, [00:55:00] it was easy if marketing wasn't getting funded to the way I thought it should be, it was easy to take it personally and be like, Well, you know, no matter what the formula says, if I was doing a good job, I would get more resources.

[00:55:09] You know, it's easy to kind of get in that mindset and you know, over time as you kind of see, um, the benefit of that approach and then also, uh, you know, that it happens not just to your team or other teams or whatever. You just, you, it's, you become, I don't wanna say desensitized to it because you stood, you should still lobby for the resource that you think you need, but you are.

[00:55:31] You, you take it less personally and realize, hey look, this is for the greater good. Um, I'm a shareholder to this company too, and like I want the company adult be successful. And it, it can't always be like, uh, kind of this like keeping score mentality cuz that's not gonna get you anywhere. And um, you know, I think when I took those situations and showed that I could still be resourceful, that I wasn't like, Oh I can't do that cause I don't have enough people.

[00:55:55] I don't, I can't do that cuz you know, I, I need three times the budget and figured out the best [00:56:00] solution I could with the resources I had that helped me move up in my career and helped me, um, you know, get, uh, promotions over time. And so, you know, I think that that was also just personally motivating to, to, you know, realize that 

[00:56:18] Your bosses are there to help you through problems. But  if they're asking you to do something, you're constantly saying, Well I can't do that because of this issue or that issue. And you're not being solution oriented. Uh, it's gonna be hard for you to grow and I think, you know, through the course of, of, um, some of the growth spurts at Salesforce and Twilio and now attentive, um, I've just tried to keep that, that mindset in place and, and to hopefully lead by example and, and motivate my team to do the same.

[00:56:45] Brett Berson: building on that, when you think about up and coming marketers, what advice do you have for them if they, at some point in their career, wanna be a cmo? And, and maybe, maybe the advice could kind of orient around maybe smaller [00:57:00] things that they consider doing or, or little actions or little areas to focus on that that might have some outsized impact on their path to be a cmo.

[00:57:11] Sarah Varni: Yeah, I would say that if there are people in the audience that are looking to be at cmo, I would think about taking on some side projects that expose you to new parts of the marketing mix. Like most marketers come up through. Uh, you know, one particular function. And when you're, you're, uh, you step into a CMO role, you're not just gonna be a product marketer, or not just Aion person, you're asked to, to really cover the full marketing mix.

[00:57:36] So I think sometimes people are like, Ah, I don't wanna sign up for that projects, not in my jurisdiction. But it's often some of those side projects where you, um, learn the most and you're really kind of challenged to take on a new skill. Um, and I'd also say like, sometimes you've gotta move laterally and people don't love to do that.

[00:57:54] But yeah, when I moved from my app exchange role to my [email protected], the [00:58:00] desktop com role was certainly more risky. It was an ac like app chain was not going anywhere. It's still, you know, very much part of, of Salesforce. And, um, and desk.com was a, a riskier proposition, but I knew in taking that role, I was going to be forced to hire a team like I was operating as a mini cmo.

[00:58:18] I had to learn. , uh, Legion and digital marketing overnight. I had to learn how to work with the sales team, you know, direct sales team overnight. Cause I had just worked with partners up until that date. And so there's a lot of scary parts about that, but I always say like, making that move was probably the best prep I ever had, Um, for ultimately, you know, being a cmo, even more so than running the biggest product line at Salesforce because I, I own the full mix and I had to, to really learn things, um, overnight and push myself.

[00:58:47] Brett Berson: Well, thanks so much for spending this time with us. This was awesome.

[00:58:51] Sarah Varni: Yeah. No, thanks for having me.